It all started so innocently. Just a random Facebook post with a link to an article about a far-right wing Republican trying to run for office in Minnesota.
Oh dear. . . Poor Minnesota, pretty soon we will have no credibility left. The “new and improved” Republican Party truly terrifies me.
That was the original post, here is a link to the story if you want to check it out. http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2012/05/allen-quist-michele-bachmann-campaign
What follows is a prime example of the world of politics today. It simply is not easy to argue with people who do not understand history, politics or the world in which they live.
My argument was with a person by the name of Justin Hamilton, a Ron Paul loyalist.
Shall we begin?
Justin: We are all political prisoners regardless
Me: political prisoners, eh? Seems a tad dramatic. The only thing that candidates like Emmer or Quist do is push the moderates into the DFL. One party is inclusive while the other is exclusive. I wonder what happens next?
Justin: So does calling this country fascist even though it IS
Me: It is not fascist. Not even close. Calling it that does a great injustice to all the people who have suffered under these regimes. http://en.wikipedia.org/
Justin: Tell me why goldman sachs owns this country Obama AND Romney if we are not Corporate Fascist. I know for a fact I am right so either be apathetic or realistic
Justin: Corporations OWN this country and ALL of its policies That is fascist. Wikipedia what a great source
Me: I thought the Wiki entry would be clear for you, I am not sure if you went to school for this or not. First off, if the US were controlled by corporations we would be a neo-corporatist state. I went to school for Political Theory and Philosophy, that is how I know. Alfredo Rocco was the founder of fascism, along with Mussolini. Benito Mussolini was most concerned about the general welfare of the state; he argued that the individual had certain freedoms and liberties, just as long as they had the state’s interests in mind. For example, Mussolini allowed private property to still exist, but freedom of speech or the press was strictly prohibited.
“Fascism, in short, is not only the giver of laws and the founder of institutions, but the educator and promoter of spiritual life. It wants to remake, not the forms of human life, but its content, man, character, faith” (Mussolini 1932, p. 307).
Where Mussolini saw inequality in the class system (one key element of Fascism is the opposition to all forms of class warfare, but they do strive to keep the class system in tact, they wanted collaboration between the classes for the good of the nation-state) and argued against the plutocracies of the west, Hitler saw inequality caused by jews, gays, communists, roma and other ‘outsiders’ (Although Mussolini did speak out against African and Slavic people by saying they are inferior and need to be ruled by a superior race, like Italians).
I have yet to hear Obama make any of these assertions.
Me: Mussolini and Hitler both had their goon squads who would clash with anarchists, socialists and communists with the governments doing little to stop them. Before Mussolini’s march on rome he had created the Blackshirts who had the job of cleaning up the streets, metaphorically speaking.
Culturally, both leaders created a dogma of Us vs. Them. The fascists and Nazi’s rallied together devoting their lives to the expansion of German and Italian power crushing their opposition. They both sought an end to freedom of speech, a free press and exerted an ever tightening grip on power.
Economically, both leaders enacted sweeping public works projects aimed at portraying the state as god-like, spurring population growth, starting an agricultural revolution, changing media and employing as many people as possible.
In Mussolini’s mind, the Fascist state will control every aspect of life, including the spiritual realm. This is where Fascism and other forms of absolutism would differ, some offer explanations involving class struggle (communism) while some allow religion to fill that gap (Islamo – Fascism).
Me: You were saying?
Justin: So what is going on in America today? You see no corralation? Obama is enacting the same policies as Hitler…. Suspension of Rights, Legislation Through Executive Order, Crashing our economy, Creating More War. Tell me I am wrong Hitler had an NDAA in his repertoire also. Stay asleep if you just don’t get it
Me: What is going on in America today? I am glad you asked. Currently we are seeing an influx of corporate lobbying and influence, this is more likened to a Plutocracy or Oligarchy. Since the Citizens United decision the amount of money has changed this substantially. Legislation through Executive Order has been around for quite awhile. Bush W. did expand the powers of the executive position by using the EO’s, Obama has continued that. Not sure what you mean by Crashing our economy or creating more war. We have lowered our troops levels in Iraq and Afghanistan, currently we are also militantly involved in Colombia and of course Yemen and Pakistan. Since ww2 the US has been militarily involved in over 30 countries, not including just having military bases. The NDAA, I imagine you are upset about the provision which says a US citizen can be held without trial if they are tied to a terrorist organization, I agree that is a horrible provision, one that has legally been enforceable since Bush signed the Patriot Act. Obama, personally, has pledged to never use that provision. If I were you and wanted to change things using verbiage that you do not totally understand does injustice to your arguments. I would bring up Drones flying over US cities and Obama signing off on the killing of a US Citizen, (al-maliki).
Me: Also, Hitler was not a fascist, he was a national socialist which got some ideas from Fascism, but is mildly different.
Justin: Hey you are making the wrong argument entirely you are stuck in semantics I am getting to the point of shit is messed up and I have a plan do you? Or are you just trying to be “Right”? I also have an advanced degree so boohoo its good to see you are aware but don’t much have any solutions
Me: Hitler also had no use for a NDAA, he was able to suspend their constitution based on an emergency, (Reichstag Fire Decree). Did you know that FEMA has a provision where they can declare a state of emergency and supersede democratically elected officials? I believe that is still around, most people do not know about that either. It is all for planning for large scale disasters, never been used before.
Justin: Well we did based on our reichstag 9/11 with the patriot act and then?
Justin: you know the repeal the 4th amendment act?
Me: Well, semantics is a big part of this. Calling a leader a Nazi, Fascist or Communist are all very different things. That was my argument to begin, we are not fascist. Sure I have solutions, but you didn’t ask. Would you like to hear?
Justin: Are you Noam Chomsky? If not stick to the point not the Wording
Me: But that is the point. Obama is not hitler, stalin, mao, fidel, tito or any of those. He is Obama and his policies have been moderate by historical standards, he is not even progressive.
Me: Do you have anything else besides rhetoric to offer?
Justin: Your high he wants to censor and control the internet suspend the entire constitution through legal maneuvering and executive orders and he sat back while he sent out the DHS to covertly suppress Occupy when he could not completely coop it and has to wag the dog with social issues from gay marriage to contraceptives to shade the destruction…. He has accrued more debt than bush in less than half the time and Obamacare is treason when you get past the Medical aspect hence thousands of pages…
Justin: You may just be part of the problem, Denial. I am willing to face it to change things by admitting their is a REAL BIG PROBLEM. Why doesn’t the media cover Ron Paul? He has won 10 states… Answer that and be as concise as you just were… Please justify the media black out of Ron Paul.
Me: Okay, so no, you do not have anything else besides standard Ron Paul loyalist rhetoric. First off, I am assuming you wanted to call me high which would damage the value of my arguments. That is untrue. 2nd, it is you’re. 3rd. Obama doesn’t want to “censor and control the internet,” I am assuming you are referring to CISPA, SOPA, ACTA, etc… But yet you do not read what the President says on these issues. Obama has repeatedly said as it stands he will veto CISPA. SOPA never happened and ACTA does not effect internet censorship at all. 4th, you said he wants to suspend the entire constitution, please give me proof of that. That sounds scary and worrisome and I will join your struggle if that is true. But, it is not even close to it. The debt thing you are correct on, Obama has bucked the trend and been the first Democrat president in 30 years to spend more then any GOPer during that time. You know why he spent that money? It is all based on economic history and Keynesian theory. Since the Great Depression was worsened by inaction governments and economists have devised a methodology to provide an influx of funding by govt spending programs. Out of all economic ideas tried out over the past century, this is the only one to successfully end recession or depression. FDR did it, Japan in the 90’s, but not enough funding, etc… Austerity measures are the current alternative and you can look towards Portugal to see how growth has slowed because of these measures thus worsening the debt. Economics is complicated, I understand why many people try to make it easy, but it is not. Is debt a long-term issue? Yes. Do we sacrifice the health of our citizens and economy to end debt? Of course not, that would just be silly and unnecessary. Not sure how Obamacare is treason, please offer a source. I assume you might be referencing the mandate? I am not a big fan of that one, it actually started as an alternative to single-payer care in the late 90’s, Newt Gingrich and Romney were two big champions of “Obamacare” at the time. A gov’t mandate is in no way treason and no court would support your argument. If you think that is treason, then what about the govt telling Montana to enact a speed limit of their highways or they will lose federal highway funding? That argument was used in the SCOTUS hearings on Obamacare, if the states that are suing the feds get their way the Feds will no longer be able to do things like that. I do not mind that personally, as I am for state’s rights and want a smaller federal govt. I think Minnesota will do a much better job of governing Minnesotans then the federal government or some randos from Texas.
Justin: Keep watching the TV it’s called propaganda for a reason and it seems to be resonating quite well with you… Propagating Faith Even? So have fun when you money is worthless
Me: Then you say I am in denial, please offer evidence as I have openly discussed (with rational thought) what you are claiming. There is a problem in govt, like I have said, it is based on decreasing privacy and too much corporate influence and money stemming from Citizens United v FEC. And finally, why does the media not cover Ron Paul? In fact, judging by the percentage of delegates, he has received more media coverage then what history would say. Sure, FoxNews maybe isn’t talking much about Paul but that is because they are scared his followers will take over the GOP, like they are doing in MN. It has not been a blackout by any means, a blackout would be no coverage. I read articles all the time on Ron Paul and see him on the news frequently. Not as much as Obama and Romney, but that is because Ron Paul does not have the support of either of these two people because he is a fringe candidate that espouses radical ideology. Like leaving NATO, the UN, getting rid of most federal departments, returning the US to a gold standard. These are things that would effectively destroy the United States and damage the world.
Adrienne: Justin Hamilton- if you were trying to prove a point or make a strong case for your opinions, as an audience member, I fail to be convinced. Completely. I am assuming now you will hurl a few useless insults my way or sling around some other language that does nothing to add to a discussion. That is your right. But if you want us to wake up to your point of view, I suggest you start supporting it.
Me: So everything I have said here is propaganda? What you are doing is leveling a claim against opposition that is untrue. This, interestingly enough, is a very usual political move. Dems used it against Bush by claiming he is Hitler and GOPers use it against Obama claiming he is Hitler. Which brings me all back to my first point, the US is in no way fascist and Obama is in no way a nazi or communist. The fact is I believe 100% it is the balance between our political beliefs that has made the US great. We are all Americans and care deeply about our country, that is why we are so passionate about it. None of us want to see the US unable to pay off loans or people unable to find jobs. There used to be a time in American politics where people of two opposing viewpoints would respectfully debate issues and be considerate of others. I hope those times return soon.
Justin: Now I see where we differ Your a Globalist and I am a Nationalist. Radical ideology is what we need cause to support the globalist system means the end of America anyway through the loss of National Sovereignty. Look up Agenda 21 and read the book the deliberate dumbing down of America by Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt the former #2 in the Dept of Ed and find out more about how those sacred untouchable departments do business. No the crap you absorb from the TV is propaganda, “but the president said “. You really want to prove me wrong and I really am just making arguement for arguments sake because these conversations are never had cause everyone just wants to be right… Thinks outside the box. I could careless if I convinced the Squirrel Master or Gahndi Rationally your argument was only to try to discredit mine when in the beginning I was just making a bs comment. Hence why you went straight to semantics to undermine mine. Discredit the messenger you discredit the messenger. You fell back on quite a bit of rhetoric yourself and if rationalizing your loss of rights and privacy makes you feel better then fine but while you pay “lip service” I will actually continue to do real world things to make REAL Change, not just argue semantics about what is wrong and when you are willing to question your core beliefs and deal with alittle dissonance without a breakdown or blow up we’ll talk face to face. you know whos friendslist to find me on.
Justin: That book is free from the author in PDF format Scrivanni you should read it to as an educator
Adrienne: But I must admit, simply from reading the comments, it does not strike me that Sarah dealt with a little dissonance by having a breakdown or a blow up. From a bystander’s perspective it seems that the one who “wanted to be right” was you since you incessantly used inflammatory language and attempted to shut down the other side of the argument without providing short, specific information to prove your case. I don’t know if I agree with Sarah politically or not, but I was certainly more swayed by her articulation of her arguments and by the information she provided. The most important” real world thing” you can do to make REAL change is take every opportunity like this to make a concise case for your point of view. You never know who your audience is.
At this point in time I decided to leave the argument. I grow weary of arguing with people who will simply discredit their opposition rather than offer facts or evidence to base their arguments on.
I will leave you with this:
From CNN: Breaking News: Rep. Ron Paul of Texas to end active campaigning in GOP presidential race but will continue efforts to win delegates. – http://bit.ly/41gQEF
Me: But, haven’t you heard? Ron Paul is really winning the race, I swear. He is… Oh? Those numbers, they are not right, that is a media conspiracy by the liberal nazi’s to discredit our movement. Haven’t you heard? We live under a fascist govt controlled by goldmann sachs…
If you have any similar stories or want us to feature a political argument you have had just let us know! We are happy to help educate.